Lmao I’m not wasting my time reading a whole Tankies schizo rant about how awesome China is and how it’s authoritarian 1 party system is actually super cool democracy.
You’re assuming this is the first time I’ve come across any information about China. Or he’ll even the first time I’ve seen an argument from pro china Tankie. But it’s not, I consider myself a socialist, I’ve read into the histories of china and Russia and a bit on other socialist countries and used to be quite pro china myself, but the more I read, the more information I got about how china actually operates, as I talked to actual people from China, HK and surrounding countries, and as my values matured I realise I can’t support the Chinese state (and that’s it’s not exactly even socialist) because its so authoritarian, corrupt and generally immoral.
Yes the west is shit in so many ways and capitalism is completely unsustainable, but that doesn’t mean I need to support Chinese “socialism” just because it’s not western capitalism.
And I don’t think a random post from a user that’s posting blatant propaganda is going to completely recontexualise everything I know about China and make all their bullshit suddenly ok. So why waste my team reading it?
And to give a more extreme scenario, if you encountered a Nazi who wrote a massive comment about how Nazi Germany was actually great and democratic and treated people well, would you bother to read it? Are you obliged to learn about it?
Again, you reject even western academics and scholars like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center, and even Wikipedia. Who on Earth do you trust, then? These are “blatant propaganda,” as you say? Regarding your comparison of socialists to Nazis, this is a ridiculous leap. No, socialism isn’t fascism, and equating the two is a form of Holocaust trivialization with ties to Double Genocide Theory.
To place Russian communism on the same moral level with Nazi fascism, because both are totalitarian, is, at best, superficial, in the worse case it is fascism. He who insists on this equality may be a democrat; in truth and in his heart, he is already a fascist, and will surely fight fascism with insincerity and appearance, but with complete hatred only communism.
I’ve explained before, but no, China is not capitalist. Public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, it governs the large firms and key industries and dominates the overall character of the economy. Private ownership exists, but is secondary to that, filling in the gaps left behind by the huge state driven industries in secondary and underdeveloped areas, and is folded into the public sector as it grows. The capitalist class is not allowed to gain political power, and the working classes control the state.
You should support China’s socialist system because it’s not at all like the figure you have in your head. It’s imperfect because it’s real, but is constantly improving.
Because you dismiss even western academics and scholars like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center, and even Wikipedia. Who on Earth do you trust, then? If the communists and socialists can manage to find well-respected western orgs backing our claims, why do you reject even them? How small is your echo chamber allowed to be?
Okay I’ll give you the tiniest little bite. Your first link is a fucking substsck article from a blatant propaganda pusher that mostly publishes “the west = bad” blog post
So he is trying to claim that China is actually a shining example of democracy, despite being a 1 party state that openly punishes it’s citizens for critisicing the government, the revolution, key reveloutionary figure or communism in general, because of opinion polls that, in a different blog post, he admits are only as high as they are because of China’s censorship of government criticism.
We have actual empirical standards for what a democracy is. China is basically the poster child for modern authoritarianism and does not fit the description of a democratic state in any reasonable way. No opposition is allowed, the party leadership is the one that picks candidates, not the citizens and even then citizens only get this performative vote at the very lowest level of government.
But that’s all I’m going to give you. I’ve fallen into the trap of trying to argue with Tankies who are not arguing from a position of reason, you’re like Magas or Nazis but just intelligent enough to actually cherry pick data and use the language of political theory to attempted to disguise your lunacy.
Reply if you want, call me a shitlib for being pro free and fair elections if you feel like, but I’m not wasting any more of my time on you.
Okay I’ll give you the tiniest little bite. Your first link is a fucking substsck article from a blatant propaganda pusher that mostly publishes “the west = bad” blog post
Nope. My first link is to Wikipedia, my second link is to Jason Hickel’s substack. Here’s who he is, per Wikipedia:
Jason Edward Hickel[2] (born 1982) is a Swazi economic anthropologist, academic and democratic eco-socialist.[3] He is a professor at the Institute of Environmental Science & Technology (ICTA-UAB) at the Autonomous University of Barcelona,[4] a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, a visiting senior fellow at the International Inequalities Institute at the London School of Economics, and was the Chair of Global Justice and the Environment at the University of Oslo.[5] He serves on the Climate and Macroeconomics Roundtable of the US National Academy of Sciences.[6]
I guess none of that matters to you? All of his sources are cited, including organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center. The fact that he posts some of his work on Substack doesn’t make it wrong.
So he is trying to claim that China is actually a shining example of democracy, despite being a 1 party state that openly punishes it’s citizens for critisicing the government, the revolution, key reveloutionary figure or communism in general, because of opinion polls that, in a different blog post, he admits are only as high as they are because of China’s censorship of government criticism.
Actually, Hickel’s point is that support for the CPC in China is popular because, above all else, the CPC has consistently delivered on its ambitious but grounded promises to the public. The PRC has seen an unimaginable climb from 1949 under CPC leadership, faster than any other country on the planet, and this has caused the working classes to support them.
We have actual empirical standards for what a democracy is. China is basically the poster child for modern authoritarianism and does not fit the description of a democratic state in any reasonable way. No opposition is allowed, the party leadership is the one that picks candidates, not the citizens and even then citizens only get this performative vote at the very lowest level of government.
This is incorrect, on multiple levels. China does not allow opposition parties, this is true, because factionalism is anti-socialist and is a product of liberal, bourgeois forms of democracy. Instead, policy is dynamic and focuses on consultative democracy. Democracy is not the ability to choose which party represents you, but is the rule by the majority. China has the latter, while the west only has the former.
To repeat myself, the Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
But that’s all I’m going to give you. I’ve fallen into the trap of trying to argue with Tankies who are not arguing from a position of reason, you’re like Magas or Nazis but just intelligent enough to actually cherry pick data and use the language of political theory to attempted to disguise your lunacy.
No, socialists and communists are nothing like MAGA nor Nazis. As we have seen and I have proven, you’re dismissing decorated academics like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, as well as western organizations like the Ash Center, Wikipedia, and Harvard, all to cling to a false vision of reality.
Reply if you want, call me a shitlib for being pro free and fair elections if you feel like, but I’m not wasting any more of my time on you.
You aren’t pro “free and fair elections,” you’re in favor of elections dominated by capitalists, and believe Chinese people to be too stupid to realize the superiority of such elections. In order to maintain that chauvanistic view, you dismiss even western academics and scholars like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center, and even Wikipedia. Who on Earth do you trust, then?
Lmao I’m not wasting my time reading a whole Tankies schizo rant about how awesome China is and how it’s authoritarian 1 party system is actually super cool democracy.
You should read it.
Why would I willingly waste my time on Tankie nonsense?
You might learn something. But who knows, maybe China is just evil and nothing can be learned about their society and governance.
Even if you think Chinese socialism is bad, aren’t you obligated to learn about it?
You’re assuming this is the first time I’ve come across any information about China. Or he’ll even the first time I’ve seen an argument from pro china Tankie. But it’s not, I consider myself a socialist, I’ve read into the histories of china and Russia and a bit on other socialist countries and used to be quite pro china myself, but the more I read, the more information I got about how china actually operates, as I talked to actual people from China, HK and surrounding countries, and as my values matured I realise I can’t support the Chinese state (and that’s it’s not exactly even socialist) because its so authoritarian, corrupt and generally immoral.
Yes the west is shit in so many ways and capitalism is completely unsustainable, but that doesn’t mean I need to support Chinese “socialism” just because it’s not western capitalism.
And I don’t think a random post from a user that’s posting blatant propaganda is going to completely recontexualise everything I know about China and make all their bullshit suddenly ok. So why waste my team reading it?
And to give a more extreme scenario, if you encountered a Nazi who wrote a massive comment about how Nazi Germany was actually great and democratic and treated people well, would you bother to read it? Are you obliged to learn about it?
Again, you reject even western academics and scholars like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center, and even Wikipedia. Who on Earth do you trust, then? These are “blatant propaganda,” as you say? Regarding your comparison of socialists to Nazis, this is a ridiculous leap. No, socialism isn’t fascism, and equating the two is a form of Holocaust trivialization with ties to Double Genocide Theory.
I’ve explained before, but no, China is not capitalist. Public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, it governs the large firms and key industries and dominates the overall character of the economy. Private ownership exists, but is secondary to that, filling in the gaps left behind by the huge state driven industries in secondary and underdeveloped areas, and is folded into the public sector as it grows. The capitalist class is not allowed to gain political power, and the working classes control the state.
You should support China’s socialist system because it’s not at all like the figure you have in your head. It’s imperfect because it’s real, but is constantly improving.
Do you think that your knowledge of fascist Germany and socialist China are at comparable levels? Do you think those societies are at all comparable?
Because you dismiss even western academics and scholars like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center, and even Wikipedia. Who on Earth do you trust, then? If the communists and socialists can manage to find well-respected western orgs backing our claims, why do you reject even them? How small is your echo chamber allowed to be?
What an excellent counter to academic sources mostly from western organizations. Pejoratives, ableism, and admitting to not even daring to read it.
Okay I’ll give you the tiniest little bite. Your first link is a fucking substsck article from a blatant propaganda pusher that mostly publishes “the west = bad” blog post
So he is trying to claim that China is actually a shining example of democracy, despite being a 1 party state that openly punishes it’s citizens for critisicing the government, the revolution, key reveloutionary figure or communism in general, because of opinion polls that, in a different blog post, he admits are only as high as they are because of China’s censorship of government criticism.
We have actual empirical standards for what a democracy is. China is basically the poster child for modern authoritarianism and does not fit the description of a democratic state in any reasonable way. No opposition is allowed, the party leadership is the one that picks candidates, not the citizens and even then citizens only get this performative vote at the very lowest level of government.
But that’s all I’m going to give you. I’ve fallen into the trap of trying to argue with Tankies who are not arguing from a position of reason, you’re like Magas or Nazis but just intelligent enough to actually cherry pick data and use the language of political theory to attempted to disguise your lunacy.
Reply if you want, call me a shitlib for being pro free and fair elections if you feel like, but I’m not wasting any more of my time on you.
Nope. My first link is to Wikipedia, my second link is to Jason Hickel’s substack. Here’s who he is, per Wikipedia:
I guess none of that matters to you? All of his sources are cited, including organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center. The fact that he posts some of his work on Substack doesn’t make it wrong.
Actually, Hickel’s point is that support for the CPC in China is popular because, above all else, the CPC has consistently delivered on its ambitious but grounded promises to the public. The PRC has seen an unimaginable climb from 1949 under CPC leadership, faster than any other country on the planet, and this has caused the working classes to support them.
This is incorrect, on multiple levels. China does not allow opposition parties, this is true, because factionalism is anti-socialist and is a product of liberal, bourgeois forms of democracy. Instead, policy is dynamic and focuses on consultative democracy. Democracy is not the ability to choose which party represents you, but is the rule by the majority. China has the latter, while the west only has the former.
To repeat myself, the Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
No, socialists and communists are nothing like MAGA nor Nazis. As we have seen and I have proven, you’re dismissing decorated academics like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, as well as western organizations like the Ash Center, Wikipedia, and Harvard, all to cling to a false vision of reality.
You aren’t pro “free and fair elections,” you’re in favor of elections dominated by capitalists, and believe Chinese people to be too stupid to realize the superiority of such elections. In order to maintain that chauvanistic view, you dismiss even western academics and scholars like Jason Hickel and Roland Boer, organizations like Harvard and the Ash Center, and even Wikipedia. Who on Earth do you trust, then?